tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post2980770139251816141..comments2023-11-02T07:13:53.064-07:00Comments on Beervana: Whose Culture?Jeff Alworthhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-39378675146686764952017-03-13T16:25:08.238-07:002017-03-13T16:25:08.238-07:00Does anyone outside hardcore beer aficionados even...Does anyone outside hardcore beer aficionados even know what Zoigl is? I know more about beer than the average person on the street, but I never heard of the Zoigl tradition. I figured the name was just chosen because it was German. 99.99% of the people buying beer haven't a clue what Zoigl is.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00097878173622170668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-6421157349956861172017-03-13T12:00:37.093-07:002017-03-13T12:00:37.093-07:00This 'discussion' thread will prove inform...This 'discussion' thread will prove informative to my Globalization and Beer class. Jeff D. from The Bighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06775506631819180784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-78550672237912041932017-03-13T10:45:31.170-07:002017-03-13T10:45:31.170-07:00Well, if I might give my view from across a border...Well, if I might give my view from across a border, it's not really odd given Trump's links to white nationalists so much as really odd given he is an isolationist. He would export a version of America, not import a bit of Germany (of all places). This sort of inclusion/appropriate/homage would seem to me to be something of an anti-Trumpist move. <br /><br />[All of which I appreciate is Alanhttp://agoodbeerblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-42123054671147787852017-03-13T09:52:02.055-07:002017-03-13T09:52:02.055-07:00Okay, I guess I will have to comment on this Trump...Okay, I guess I will have to comment on this Trump business. Both Anon and Daniel liken this post to Trump, but I don't even understand how it's used. To the extent Trump has any philosophy at all, it's white nationalism. How is this relevant to a discussion of the way European culture is being appropriated in the US? <br /><br />This is name-calling because it doesn't mean Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-48031223797397242802017-03-13T04:37:50.288-07:002017-03-13T04:37:50.288-07:00I get that you object to the label Jeff. Certainly...I get that you object to the label Jeff. Certainly it seems intended to offend in part. I don't think being likened to Trump or the discourse surrounding him carries the same weight as Godwins Law though, and in this case the shoe fits, whatever your personal politics might be. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-10545605044408847552017-03-13T03:49:35.385-07:002017-03-13T03:49:35.385-07:00Alan: That raises the question, "What is Zoig...Alan: That raises the question, "What is Zoigl?" To me it's a localized tradition, not a beer style per se. Each brewer/family has their own recipe in theory, and though they are eerily similar if one of them made a bitter brown ale or something, it would still be Zoigl because of the communal brewing tradition. Just like if a Trappist abbey brewed a shitty lager, it would still be Joe Stangehttp://www.thirstypilgrim.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-52813001124523176322017-03-11T02:42:50.741-08:002017-03-11T02:42:50.741-08:00This made mw laugh so much. Clearly Anonymous know...This made mw laugh so much. Clearly Anonymous knows me inside out.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-84405005329237744942017-03-11T02:27:20.385-08:002017-03-11T02:27:20.385-08:00So as far as I can follow it, the argument seems t...So as far as I can follow it, the argument seems to go:<br /><br />Ron: They shouldn't call it zoigl, because it's not zoigl.<br /><br />Jeff: True. But that's American culture.<br /><br />I hope I've misunderstood Jeff here, because if it isn't zoigl, why should you insist on calling it zoigl? Isn't that deliberate deception of innocent customers who think they are buyingLars Marius Garsholhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15442220825022305581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-84387430802579083452017-03-10T17:13:23.122-08:002017-03-10T17:13:23.122-08:00That's an eye-poppingly OTT comment. Slanderin...That's an eye-poppingly OTT comment. Slandering someone as a neo-nazi because they have an opinion on beer styles is really quite unhinged.<br />LiamTheBrewerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17343568963519802907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-88774574183575899032017-03-10T14:48:43.243-08:002017-03-10T14:48:43.243-08:00aww but "Anonymous" just accused ron pat...aww but "Anonymous" just accused ron pattinson of being a BNPer which a public hair away from calling him a nazi. This is just when it's getting good!!Daniel Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15541362075861422658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-34333079698847879742017-03-10T14:41:32.091-08:002017-03-10T14:41:32.091-08:00Folks, we probably need to tone down the political...Folks, we probably need to tone down the politically-tinged talk here. Ron's initial comment was fine if a bit pointed. He addresses the theme of cultural appropriation, which is a subject we can all relate to. It is not monstrous.<br /><br />Daniel, yes, you're calling me names ("very Trumpian") which is less a crime of trolling than just boring and beneath you. You make your Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-68981622700937315832017-03-10T14:32:41.605-08:002017-03-10T14:32:41.605-08:00This level of sanctimony and quest for cultural pu...This level of sanctimony and quest for cultural purity fits quite neatly within the wave of far-right nationalism that's currently sweeping Europe. Is Ron also a supporter of the BNP? If I were european I'd be pretty weary of aligning myself with such anti-pluralism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-64415002833364147432017-03-10T13:58:26.654-08:002017-03-10T13:58:26.654-08:00I didn't call you names; I said your argument ...I didn't call you names; I said your argument was Trumpian. Which it is. This kind of chauvanism is the kind of response you get from the right whenever someone complains about cultural appopriation of Halloween costumes or whatever.<br /><br />"Suck it up, buttercup, this is what we do here"Daniel Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15541362075861422658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-46313728221028786832017-03-10T13:43:21.924-08:002017-03-10T13:43:21.924-08:00I would give a nickel for the chance to smack who...I would give a nickel for the chance to smack whoever came up with Ballast Point's Tart Peach Kolsch. Somebody is going to think that's what a Kolsch should taste like. I deal with a lot of beer style blasphemy in my main job, and as a lover of Kolsch am mildly irked when a US brewer doesn't append "-style". But most of the time it's an homage, and I'm happy to try A Brussathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11549214203990029015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-55762740082380470722017-03-10T13:18:19.933-08:002017-03-10T13:18:19.933-08:00The only thing that's "Trumpian" in ...The only thing that's "Trumpian" in this thread is you discarding and eluding the author's argument with name calling and labeling.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-10143380955881877292017-03-10T11:29:07.280-08:002017-03-10T11:29:07.280-08:00Very Trumpian. I see you are settling into the new...<i>Very Trumpian. I see you are settling into the new zeitgeist... I wasn't joking when I said it is a Trumpian position to take.</i><br /><br />I have written a thousand-word essay about culture in which I tried to bring nuance and understanding to the discussion; you have called me names. I shall let history judge which is more Trumpian.Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-25358162191104540362017-03-10T11:10:01.580-08:002017-03-10T11:10:01.580-08:00Oh I agree. I wasn't joking when I said it is ...Oh I agree. I wasn't joking when I said it is a Trumpian position to take.Daniel Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15541362075861422658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-74186034197503948182017-03-10T10:53:51.805-08:002017-03-10T10:53:51.805-08:00*"and not crassly borrowing the name for mark...*"and not crassly borrowing the name for marketing purposes is the price you pay for its preservation."<br />Daniel Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15541362075861422658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-54793509357661503102017-03-10T10:53:01.286-08:002017-03-10T10:53:01.286-08:00That whole lambic kerfuffle is specifically what I...That whole lambic kerfuffle is specifically what I'm referring to. You were right then. You are wrong now.<br /><br />Lambic and Zoigl are two of the most transparent analogues I can think of. I can make a spontaneously fermented wild ale, but it isn't *lambic*. That entire way of brewing is an endangered species and not crassly borrowing the name for marketing purposes.<br /><br />Other Daniel Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15541362075861422658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-18515123813536573842017-03-10T09:21:56.528-08:002017-03-10T09:21:56.528-08:00There are two links in paragraph four that do this...There are two links in paragraph four that do this. Click and see...Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-28621885735913439662017-03-10T09:20:14.582-08:002017-03-10T09:20:14.582-08:00Joe, I agree it has a whiff of American exceptiona...Joe, I agree it has a whiff of American exceptionalism. That's what culture is. What I'm trying to point out is that there's more than a little European exceptionalism going on in this discussion that is neither being acknowledged nor investigated. You want to pluck the goose, fair enough, but note that the fully-feathered gander is siting right next to her entirely unmolested.Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-92000240637633437152017-03-10T08:28:35.455-08:002017-03-10T08:28:35.455-08:00But would you be then annoyed again once you have ...But would you be then annoyed again once you have tasted it and see that it isn't Zoigl?Alanhttp://agoodbeerblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-61043144898885446952017-03-10T08:26:49.492-08:002017-03-10T08:26:49.492-08:00I dunno. I see a sliding scale even though I don&#...I dunno. I see a sliding scale even though I don't see Zoigl-oid being Zoigl as you say. I accept macro Pilsner as being a descendant of German immigratation to the US in the 1800s. We have Canadian Cheddar made by descendants of immigrants from England, many firms going back many generations. I wouldn't want to call it Cheddar-style cheese. But (for me) your point on the techniques of Alanhttp://agoodbeerblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-68579909707983359382017-03-10T07:41:07.214-08:002017-03-10T07:41:07.214-08:00My comment isn't in reference to the Zoigl/Zoi...My comment isn't in reference to the Zoigl/Zoiglhaus issue in particular - though I agree with you on the crassness - nor even general cultural appropriation, but the argument that we should all just chill out and accept it, because it's what Americans do.The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-75068437504498521432017-03-10T05:20:03.230-08:002017-03-10T05:20:03.230-08:00Also Jeff, please defend this position in a new po...Also Jeff, please defend this position in a new post. I am not going to engage in 140 characters. I think all of my twitters are "sensitive" or shadowbanned anyway.<br /><br />"Lambics are pretty special cases. Not exactly an analogue to the zoigl tradition."Daniel Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15541362075861422658noreply@blogger.com