tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post4303664070133051338..comments2023-11-02T07:13:53.064-07:00Comments on Beervana: Beer Taxes and Industry VibrancyJeff Alworthhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-87763454107908098212009-06-26T05:10:41.963-07:002009-06-26T05:10:41.963-07:00The cost of beer jumped by a price tag far greater...The cost of beer jumped by a price tag far greater than the proposed beer tax. Don't put it on the back of moderate drinkers like me whose only 'sin' is to enjoy a beer.Chiang Maihttp://www.asiarooms.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-74812116310858755242009-06-06T13:06:31.873-07:002009-06-06T13:06:31.873-07:00Jeff,
What facts have I gotten wrong? If you are ...Jeff,<br /><br />What facts have I gotten wrong? If you are going to accuse my of misrepresenting fact you should at least tell me where I am wrong. Or were you referring to the facts of your <b>opinion</b>?<br /><br />I never said you were wrong on any facts Jeff. There was never any facts in dispute.<br /><br />Policy?!? Where is this policy?<br /><br />You aren't very good at this whole Ralphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935553689879498648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-65524696910002649932009-06-06T12:57:27.809-07:002009-06-06T12:57:27.809-07:00Anon,
I do not think it is fair to create a tax s...Anon,<br /><br />I do not think it is fair to create a tax system that is aimed at assessing a higher tax rate for out of state producers. I believe that our federal system of governance has held this same belief of fairness in regards to the Commerce Clause of the United States constitution. At 100,000 barrels, no in-state producers of beer will be effected. On its face that is discriminatory. Ralphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935553689879498648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-46762462684463694892009-06-06T11:08:20.963-07:002009-06-06T11:08:20.963-07:00Ralph, I think Anon does a nice job of summarizing...Ralph, I think Anon does a nice job of summarizing my position. I believe we've both made our positions quite clear, which is why I think we're not going to come to a meeting of the minds on this one. I hear your argument, but I think you're wrong on both the facts and the policy. But hey, you think I'm wrong on facts and policy, too. So there's our impasse.<br /><br />Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-13795066732880615512009-06-06T10:47:10.233-07:002009-06-06T10:47:10.233-07:00Ralph,
I think you're misunderstanding the co...Ralph,<br /><br />I think you're misunderstanding the concept of "exemption," or else I have misunderstood what Jeff means by it. The application of a lower tax rate for the first 50,000 or 100,000 barrels (or whatever) would apply equally to all beers sold in the state. Thus, everyone gets the same tax rate on the first XX,000 gallons, and anything in excess of that is assessed at Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-14955435892539637142009-06-05T16:39:51.387-07:002009-06-05T16:39:51.387-07:00Wow, you ask to debate the merits (respond) and th...Wow, you ask to debate the merits (respond) and then walk away. Jeff, I'm disappointed in you. I do so enjoy debating the finer points.<br /><br />Some Clarifications:<br /><br />The statement of "...segment of the population" was referring to the entire population of all companies that sell and/or produce beer in the state. I had thought the context of our discussion was setup Ralphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935553689879498648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-72318774917340630842009-06-05T15:19:00.009-07:002009-06-05T15:19:00.009-07:00Ralph, we're not going to come to a meeting of...Ralph, we're not going to come to a meeting of the minds, but to be clear, this is not "progressive" taxation. It's an exemption--these things are very common. We're not talking about "the population," either. These are excise taxes on business. <br /><br />Joe, interesting data. Seems pretty solid, too.Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-60918158567754395692009-06-05T14:51:07.845-07:002009-06-05T14:51:07.845-07:00Whoa! Slow down there Jeff. Please go back and rea...Whoa! Slow down there Jeff. Please go back and read my post, I didn't quote you, I paraphrased. I said "Here is what I hear you saying in my head". I apologize for paraphrasing outside the MLA/APA style guidelines, I'll try harder to use APA style guidelines in the future.<br /><br />So let's cut to the thrust of your argument shall we? <i>"Fairness"</i><br /><brRalphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935553689879498648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-31245725512306285242009-06-05T13:47:19.373-07:002009-06-05T13:47:19.373-07:00@ Jeff
I really don't want to get involved in...@ Jeff<br /><br />I really don't want to get involved in a discussion that won't get anybody anywhere....<br /><br />Why don't we concentrate on something we can change or influence.... like Beer events... ;-}<br /><br />Beer tax is in the hand of the politicians....dr wortnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-77810002691093179372009-06-05T13:39:59.332-07:002009-06-05T13:39:59.332-07:00Ralph, when you quote someone, you best quote what...Ralph, when you quote someone, you best quote what they actually say, rather than a projection of your own mind.<br /><br />You suggested this was my view: "Tax the big guys, not the little guys. I drink beer from the little guys, so tax those other guys not the ones I drink."<br /><br />Wrong. <br /><br />To me there are two issues here: 1) fairness and 2) protecting local business. Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-47237873376214973292009-06-05T12:36:09.453-07:002009-06-05T12:36:09.453-07:00Political Economy suggests that states with strong...Political Economy suggests that states with strong industry lobbies (i.e. lots of brewers) will be more apt to raise tax rates.<br /><br />So, to echo Jeff, causality is a tough nut to crack.Patrick Emersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17242234148546323374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-58209581264600543512009-06-05T12:11:18.866-07:002009-06-05T12:11:18.866-07:00Jeff,
Here is what I hear you saying in my head:
...Jeff,<br /><br />Here is what I hear you saying in my head:<br /><br />"Tax the big guys, not the little guys. I drink beer from the little guys, so tax those other guys not the ones I drink."<br /><br /><a href="http://www.olcc.state.or.us/pdfs/beer/beer_2008_12.pdf" rel="nofollow">OLCC Barrels Sold 2008</a><br /><br />So let's see, according to you they should <i>maybe</i> tax Ralphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935553689879498648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-40730026671265750372009-06-05T12:06:53.359-07:002009-06-05T12:06:53.359-07:00I did a little research to answer my own question ...I did a little research to answer my own question and who knows if the interweb is right on these things, but here's what I've found. Again, take this with a grain of salt.<br /><br />Alaska raised its tax in 2002. 8 (possibly 9) breweries opened pre 2002 with the bulk in the late '90s. Since 2002 5 breweries have closed (3 in the year 2002) and 3 have opened.<br /><br />At best joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190744835642613081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-72470036200954249142009-06-05T11:27:29.546-07:002009-06-05T11:27:29.546-07:00Mark, I wouldn't dismiss Alaska. In some case...Mark, I wouldn't dismiss Alaska. In some cases, the per-capita figure is misleading. Wyoming looks like a vibrantly-breweried state if you apply that measure, but try to name me a single Wyoming brewery. Alaska, by contrast, has two breweries of national reputation (Alaskan, Midnight Sun), both of which make serious beers. My sense is that there is a burgeoning beer scene there.<br /><br Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03594885911173608333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-10319696617721913722009-06-05T11:19:28.695-07:002009-06-05T11:19:28.695-07:00Profitablity drives business formation. Taxes are...Profitablity drives business formation. Taxes are a cost that effect profitablity. Who'd start a business if they weren't confident they'd have a good shot to make money?<br /><br />"Oregon is under-taxed"<br /><br />Maybe everywhere else is over-taxed, who's to say? That's like saying entity x needs to pay their "fair share." What does that even mean joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190744835642613081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-73596945525800655672009-06-05T11:16:34.015-07:002009-06-05T11:16:34.015-07:00Interesting, our fellow "Beer City USA" ...Interesting, our fellow "Beer City USA" is in North Carolina, one of the higher taxed states.<br /><br />I say we start our own bill to double the current tax on beer in Oregon, put in a clause that it is locked in for 25 years, "funds needed to fulfill the gap in education funding", maybe the dolts that are supporting the current bill will bite.DA Beershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13592377918990052792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-91206559594252220252009-06-05T11:10:53.932-07:002009-06-05T11:10:53.932-07:00And, to add to the debate, Alaska may be a high pe...And, to add to the debate, Alaska may be a high per capita state, but there are darn few people in Alaska. So, even though they excel in that category, are they as significant as Washington and California? Those states have higher excise taxes than Oregon and perhaps lower number of breweries per capita, too. Also, it would be useful to know beer production volumes rather than breweries per Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07522969360434191018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-21412588740727466812009-06-05T10:54:05.677-07:002009-06-05T10:54:05.677-07:00Patrick,
Careful, stats lie. Correlations do no...Patrick, <br /><br />Careful, stats lie. Correlations do not equal causation. You'd have to run the numbers to see what the effect is--<i>and</i> you'd have to control for things like historical brewing states, consumption, and factors that aren't obvious by a casual glance. <br /><br />An interesting test case is Alaska, which raised their rates in the past few years and are now Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03594885911173608333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-31140010623353720342009-06-05T10:52:26.177-07:002009-06-05T10:52:26.177-07:00Not so fast with the stats. Presumably most craft ...Not so fast with the stats. Presumably most craft beer businesses locate, initially, where there is a strong market for their products. I doubt that Oregon breweries were founded on the basis of brewers scouring the state tax tables to determine the ideal siting of a brewery. I am also unaware of the relocation of breweries here from higher-tax states, but I'm no expert on that. <br />HoweverMarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07522969360434191018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-35048831043204169982009-06-05T10:39:50.468-07:002009-06-05T10:39:50.468-07:00I wasn't going to comment...
I put the same g...I wasn't going to comment...<br /><br />I put the same graphic on Dr Wort's page a couple of days ago and asked what people thought. No response! So, I figured.... OK.... Move on... They're not interested. <br /><br />To me the graphic is pretty obvious, Oregon is under-taxed and they're finally getting around to fixing that little problem. Death and Taxes my friends.... You can Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-37368132424680568332009-06-05T10:20:58.343-07:002009-06-05T10:20:58.343-07:00Jeff,
Let me beat DW to the punch:
No s^*t sherl...Jeff,<br /><br />Let me beat DW to the punch:<br /><br />No s^*t sherlock.<br /><br />Anyone who thinks there isn't causality isn't very well steeped in economics. <br /><br />All businesses locate and relocate to take advantages of favorable tax situations. WHy would we assume that brewers are worse businessmen than the average?Patricknoreply@blogger.com