tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post6885774270060391480..comments2023-11-02T07:13:53.064-07:00Comments on Beervana: The Last Days of the Smoke-filled PubJeff Alworthhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-30945968243324197862008-12-31T11:27:00.000-08:002008-12-31T11:27:00.000-08:00Thankful Anon:I'm only interested in saving others...Thankful Anon:<BR/><BR/>I'm only interested in saving others, beginning with myself, from you. <BR/><BR/>Please feel free to damage yourself as severely and with as much dispatch as your heart desires.<BR/><BR/>--JTAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-9995924864325156862008-12-30T15:53:00.000-08:002008-12-30T15:53:00.000-08:00Anon, I never said anything about saving you from ...Anon, I never said anything about saving you from yourself. I said the legislature has a right to make this law. The reason I support it 60% is for me, not you.<BR/><BR/>(The 40% I oppose it is on your behalf.)Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-1729933184731540762008-12-30T13:58:00.000-08:002008-12-30T13:58:00.000-08:00Jeff and Jeremy: Thank you for saving me from mys...Jeff and Jeremy: Thank you for saving me from myself. I've been waiting for dudes like you my whole life to step in and tell me how I need to do things. I really appreciate it. I feel more enlightened already.<BR/><BR/>(P.S. I do appreciate you making it clear where the smuggest crowd is going to be in the new year: the Horse Brass. I'll steer clear.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-31147675314135973622008-12-30T10:10:00.000-08:002008-12-30T10:10:00.000-08:00Ralph, your dissent is noted. There's no "right" ...Ralph, your dissent is noted. There's no "right" answer on this one. It's a battle of competing interests. In a democracy, this is how we resolve them. I have, for the past 30 years, so often been in the minority on how we've made laws that I understand how frustrating it can be.Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-30979477042109482632008-12-30T09:38:00.000-08:002008-12-30T09:38:00.000-08:00Jeff / Jeremy - The arguments about dog-fighting,...Jeff / Jeremy - The arguments about dog-fighting, beating your kids, etc, simply do not apply. Those are specific activities that we as a society have already decided are immoral and that activity itself is illegal, regardless of where it takes place. These are activities in which the participants did not consent to be involved with. So unless you are arguing that smoking itself (regardless ofAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-16460608157598079902008-12-30T09:32:00.000-08:002008-12-30T09:32:00.000-08:00Jeff Alworth said...[I]t is worth noting that in t...Jeff Alworth said...<BR/><BR/><I>[I]t is worth noting that in terms of social cost, the state has more than just a passing interest: smoking costs millions a year in medical bills, lost work hours, and so on. Making smoking illegal in public places has cut the smoking rate to one of the lowest in the world. It's not just nannyism that provokes legislators to act.</I><BR/><BR/>Millions in medical Ralphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935553689879498648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-36142196693051184732008-12-30T09:00:00.000-08:002008-12-30T09:00:00.000-08:00My point about dog fighting was intentionally extr...My point about dog fighting was intentionally extreme--the message is that as a matter of law, government has the right to make these regulations in a democracy. <BR/><BR/>Speaking of democracy, this issue is a perfect example of how citizens negotiate competing interests. Democracies allow the people (that is, the majority) to make laws while ensuring the rights of the minority are respected. Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-20454571021363236252008-12-30T08:56:00.000-08:002008-12-30T08:56:00.000-08:00Great, now they should get moving and outlaw that ...Great, now they should get moving and outlaw that other evil in private run businesses, alcohol!Ralphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935553689879498648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-51374600804811249442008-12-30T08:27:00.000-08:002008-12-30T08:27:00.000-08:00Deschutes Brewery has been non-smoking since 1989....Deschutes Brewery has been non-smoking since 1989. At that time we were quite the maverick. Interestingly, when we did it, our business volume actually increased.<BR/>I defend my right to make our place non-smoking as I defend Don's right to make his smoking. What we are talking about is legal activity on private property, not dog fighting or slavery.GaryatDeschuteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07975326704255418819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-49022805056296192922008-12-30T07:54:00.000-08:002008-12-30T07:54:00.000-08:00Jeremy - Without stupid internet arguments how wou...Jeremy - <BR/><BR/>Without stupid internet arguments how would we get through the work day? As Ron Burgandy would say:<BR/><BR/>"When in Rome."<BR/><BR/>- Joejoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190744835642613081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-49347111278048521122008-12-29T23:23:00.000-08:002008-12-29T23:23:00.000-08:00Hi Joe: way to cherry pick the examples while dodg...Hi Joe: <BR/><BR/>way to cherry pick the examples while dodging the real point. <BR/><BR/>We do constrain people's ability to choose all the time, e.g., working conditions rules -- I cannot choose (legally, anyway) to be employed in working conditions the state deems unsafe; likewise I cannot choose to sell myself into slavery (hoping, for instance, to benefit someone else with the proceeds), Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-51304364008362263112008-12-29T22:23:00.000-08:002008-12-29T22:23:00.000-08:00Like the Matrix, it all comes down to choice. I l...Like the Matrix, it all comes down to choice. I lose no freedoms by having smoking establishments. No one can force me to go to a smoking pub, be it to work or to drink. As an informed adult I make the choice by weighing the health/stinky factors against the pleasure. I chose to smell good.<BR/><BR/>This has no correlation to cock fights (the chicken has no choice) or beating your kids (your joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190744835642613081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-35007735849585482752008-12-29T21:15:00.000-08:002008-12-29T21:15:00.000-08:00Justin:respectfully, of course I'm serious.I can't...Justin:<BR/><BR/>respectfully, of course I'm serious.<BR/><BR/>I can't beat my kids in the privacy of my own home; I can't hold gladiator battles or even cockfights in the privacy of the basement arena of my business. <BR/><BR/>Two consenting adults can't make an agreement for one to enslave the other or even for one to employ the other at less than minimum wage or in unsafe working conditions.<Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-72860495524339156282008-12-29T20:47:00.000-08:002008-12-29T20:47:00.000-08:00Now, when the warm weather comes back around will ...Now, when the warm weather comes back around will the non-smokers ban smoking on the patio and force all the smokers back inside so they can enjoy the outside space? <BR/><BR/>I'm not a smoker, and I think the ban will improve business, it's just a funny thought, sort of like in Office Space when they keep moving Milton's desk.<BR/><BR/>I think every bar should just install those glass cubes likeDA Beershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13592377918990052792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-63970749622757026082008-12-29T20:16:00.000-08:002008-12-29T20:16:00.000-08:00While I appreciate the libertarian-minded folk fin...While I appreciate the libertarian-minded folk finding moral outrage in this law, let's be clear about the actual law. Of COURSE legislators have a right to pass laws about behavior in private establishments. Being a business-owner does not grant you sovereignty--you may not conduct duels, dog fights, or slavery just because you have a bar. <BR/><BR/>Smoking is not slavery, but the state may ban Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-8489688115707077752008-12-29T18:25:00.000-08:002008-12-29T18:25:00.000-08:00First let me say I quit smoking several years ago ...First let me say I quit smoking several years ago and honestly I won't miss the smoke. However, i think the sanctity of civil rights outweighs the other issues at hand and cannot support the ban. <BR/><BR/>These are PRIVATELY OWNED adult only establishments and now they are being forced to cater to people who aren't even their customers!! If you don't like the food at a restaurant do you Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-2086194071027747172008-12-29T18:21:00.000-08:002008-12-29T18:21:00.000-08:00I'm of a mixed opinion on the matter. I do smoke o...I'm of a mixed opinion on the matter. I do smoke occasionally, and have tried to quit uncountable times.<BR/><BR/>So on the one hand, I think I may finally be able to kick the habit if the last place I do smoke goes smokeless.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, it's an odd thing to legislate behavior like this. <BR/><BR/>In my bar, people wouldn't be allowed to play Britney Spears' music on the jukebox,Dave Seldenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12391168733071293055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-27394464496971905842008-12-29T17:27:00.000-08:002008-12-29T17:27:00.000-08:00I haven't been a smoker for some time now, but I t...I haven't been a smoker for some time now, but I think this is pretty lame. Bars are one of the few places for adults to go do what adults do. Many many great bars in Portland are smoke free and available to non-smokers.<BR/><BR/>For whiney v*ginas to impose their PC rules on all the other establishments in town is weak. Perhaps the reason the Horse Brass had smoking was to keep people like Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-64147827226950500342008-12-29T14:18:00.000-08:002008-12-29T14:18:00.000-08:00When a similar law passed in Tempe, AZ; it was hea...When a similar law passed in Tempe, AZ; it was heaven! And I can say from my experiences there, the great beer locations (Papago Brewing specificially) lost no business, and might have become busier after the ban!<BR/><BR/>Only sad thing is that now I live on the West Side and the Horse Brass is quite a long haul home.ASGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13348113012883073844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-66306458285785574922008-12-29T13:12:00.000-08:002008-12-29T13:12:00.000-08:00somewhere a Libertarian is crying...somewhere a Libertarian is crying...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-61861019814009820222008-12-29T13:10:00.000-08:002008-12-29T13:10:00.000-08:00I've been counting down the days since the law pas...I've been counting down the days since the law passed and I couldn't be happier.<BR/><BR/>I'll second the many here in expressing particular enthusiasm for finally being able to hang out at the Horse Brass -- and I'll add Tugboat, downtown, too.<BR/><BR/>I've been dragged to each a few times by friends and enjoyed the beers and the (non-smoking parts of) the atmosphere, but on every occasion I Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-12828724404280450622008-12-29T13:01:00.000-08:002008-12-29T13:01:00.000-08:00Ditto on Horse Brass. Never been because of the s...Ditto on Horse Brass. Never been because of the smoke and look forward to going. Can't believe it took Portland this long to enact a smoking ban.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06975213660808740443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-15663506224611337132008-12-29T12:42:00.000-08:002008-12-29T12:42:00.000-08:00I've never been to the Horse Brass. There are ple...I've never been to the Horse Brass. There are plenty of good places to get beer in Portland without the smoke. I know it's an icon and is sacrilege as a Portland beer drinker to not have been there. I'll go there now. However, we are all big boys and girls and we can choose where to work, drink and eat, that's why I voted against the smoking ban and why I voted the same way on the poll.joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190744835642613081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-35434208211317742932008-12-29T12:38:00.000-08:002008-12-29T12:38:00.000-08:00yeah, the Horse Brass has been off-limits for me. ...yeah, the Horse Brass has been off-limits for me. it'll be nice to have a pint there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-19929335896231742852008-12-29T12:27:00.000-08:002008-12-29T12:27:00.000-08:00It'll be nice to have a pint and chat with friends...It'll be nice to have a pint and chat with friends or listen to music and not come home coughing and reeking of smoke!Kathleen Bauerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07620435699701266954noreply@blogger.com