tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post7519025870674284353..comments2023-11-02T07:13:53.064-07:00Comments on Beervana: Why Americans Don't Make "Lambics"Jeff Alworthhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-22592110832363061732016-08-01T12:06:15.758-07:002016-08-01T12:06:15.758-07:00I have a lot of sympathy for being against mislabe...I have a lot of sympathy for being against mislabelling beers. I've recently found out lambic beers were made in Holland up until the 1930s though, so I'm now wavering a little on how strictly lambic should be defined. Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13844169940650659196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-12799663518183090982016-03-16T12:05:45.098-07:002016-03-16T12:05:45.098-07:00It's called "cultural misappropriation&qu...It's called "cultural misappropriation". Don't do it.<br /><br />Further to the "Russian Imperial Stout" angle, Le Coq (founded by a Prussian Huguenot, incidentally, not a Belgian, as everybody since Michael Jackson has been claiming) started brewing its RIS in Dorpat/Tartu, then INSIDE Russia, in 1913, precisely because large numbers of Russian brewers were making Martyn Cornellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16843357962176591317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-10435622668874166212015-07-13T15:55:59.089-07:002015-07-13T15:55:59.089-07:00・゜゜・ 。。・゜゜\_O< QUACK!・゜゜・ 。。・゜゜\_O< QUACK!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-43972426110035630672013-08-18T10:37:53.407-07:002013-08-18T10:37:53.407-07:00On the extreme end, I recently had a conversation ...On the extreme end, I recently had a conversation (about kolsch nonetheless) where someone argued that if you could duplicate a kolsch chemically in a lab using none of the actual ingredients or process involved in making beer, that it would still be kolsch style beer. It would, according to ratebeer/ba/BJCP.Daniel Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15541362075861422658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-24068446809830556932013-08-18T10:36:04.752-07:002013-08-18T10:36:04.752-07:00While I agree with you, Jeff, I don't think yo...While I agree with you, Jeff, I don't think you've drawn the lines for protected names very well. Much of what makes a traditional "lambic" CAN be reproduced stateside, or anywhere else, thanks to microbiology. Yeast that actually ferment are much more limited in nature than you'd think: there are only a handful of strains that will grow on grapes, including bayanus, there Daniel Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15541362075861422658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-17157835060316950132013-08-15T07:52:21.292-07:002013-08-15T07:52:21.292-07:00I do believe that the plural of Kolsch is Kolsch b...I do believe that the plural of Kolsch is Kolsch btw - although I prefer KolschenBoltnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-61266042928928652312013-08-14T13:34:46.844-07:002013-08-14T13:34:46.844-07:00Anyone brewery "oude gueuze" makes it tr...Anyone brewery "oude gueuze" makes it traditionally. (Blenders using stock from Boon, Cantillon, Lindemanns and so on also make traditional gueuze.) I've covered Allagash extensively on this blog and agree they do (or did--I haven't been checking up) it the way Belgians do. So far as I know, they're the only ones. (Thus "almost no.") And it's worth noting Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-45636823426759210422013-08-13T16:02:51.287-07:002013-08-13T16:02:51.287-07:00[My guess is that almost no brewery will ever make...[My guess is that almost no brewery will ever make traditional lambics in the way Belgians do]<br /><br />You should look into 1.) how these Belgian breweries are making lambic and 2.) how Allagash is making lambic.<br /><br />Actually, first you should write down the methodology you believe is required to make lambic. Then compare that to what you find is actually being done. <br /><br />ThereLevihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869366554598180116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-10015277706147305202013-08-13T09:58:33.470-07:002013-08-13T09:58:33.470-07:00Levi, let's not farm out style-granting author...Levi, let's not farm out style-granting authority to RateBeer and BeerAdvocate, whatsay? I'm not prepared to go there yet. <br /><br />My guess is that almost no brewery will ever make traditional lambics in the way Belgians do, from turbid mash through proper aging. In the event that they do, it's easy enough to say "traditional lambic-style" or "spontaneous" Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-76240802254701192102013-08-13T09:47:50.642-07:002013-08-13T09:47:50.642-07:00By the way Imperial Stout was brewed in Russia - L...By the way Imperial Stout was brewed in Russia - Le Coq made it in Tartu (then part of the Russian Empire) from about 1912 until the Revolution. Also, Zythophile (Martyn Cornell) indicated some years ago in a superb blog entry on Imperial Russian Stout that porter was brewed in Russia as early as 1803. He didn't refer to Imperial Stout as such, but I'd think any local porter brewer Gary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-67190758316174466172013-08-13T08:39:22.054-07:002013-08-13T08:39:22.054-07:00Jeff - Lambickx is Belgian lambic (not American). ...Jeff - Lambickx is Belgian lambic (not American). Rueuze is a sour blonde blend (not lambic). Allagash is an example of a US brewery producing traditional lambic.<br /><br />What I disagree with is making a blanket statement that Americans can't make lambic. There is a methodology to making lambic that Americans can follow. Allagash is one example of a brewery who has gone through all theLevihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869366554598180116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-19318754352519253382013-08-12T18:55:40.082-07:002013-08-12T18:55:40.082-07:00Jeff,
You seem very direct and matter-of-fact an...Jeff, <br /><br />You seem very direct and matter-of-fact and I don't see how you were trying to make anyone look dumb. Some people just like to play the victim and get validation by their followers to make them feel better. It actually seemed like you were the one who was getting bullied at the end of that twitter conversation. <br /><br />Such a shame. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-8613485501087907302013-08-12T17:28:09.068-07:002013-08-12T17:28:09.068-07:00In order for an American brewery to produce a pack...In order for an American brewery to produce a packaged Kolsch they have to label it as a "kolsch style ale" in order for the TTB to approve the label.Tperkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17156824615085913691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-31350874495002287862013-08-12T16:31:23.612-07:002013-08-12T16:31:23.612-07:00Jeff,
Also note that you never.... like never tal...Jeff,<br /><br />Also note that you never.... like never talk to me on Twitter. And the one time you talk to me on Twitter is to criticize me. Like a troll, you waited in the shadows for an opportune moment to jump out and sabotage me.<br /><br />If we had regular banter between us, none of this would have been an issue. I might have said something to the extent of---oh, you're right. Good Ashleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-36786592951006952302013-08-12T16:26:45.356-07:002013-08-12T16:26:45.356-07:00Jeff,
What I don't get is why you had to mak...Jeff, <br /><br />What I don't get is why you had to make an example of me? Why you had to portray me as the fool? <br /><br />I think it's great that you are passionate about lambics. I think it's awesome that you want to educate the world about lambics. But why did you have to make me look like a fool in the process? What do you have to gain from making me look like an ignorant beerAshleyhttp://twitter.com/thebeerwenchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-35597577375668141812013-08-12T16:09:41.876-07:002013-08-12T16:09:41.876-07:00Ashley,
I didn't write this post to offend an...Ashley,<br /><br />I didn't write this post to offend and certainly not humiliate you. You often post tweets designed to elicit opinions, so I weighed in on that lambic one with my lambics-aren't-American comment. By no means was this to disparage you. It's just a hobby horse of mine and so I thought I'd weigh in.<br /><br />The next day, I noticed there had been quite a bit ofJeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-72174443822046218682013-08-12T15:52:27.820-07:002013-08-12T15:52:27.820-07:00Levi, I didn't want to get into the weeds of t...Levi, I didn't want to get into the weeds of the PGI law more than I already did, but yeah, the key is "oude." <br /><br />Your comment reminds me that I meant to note that with some pretty rare exceptions, American brewers don't use the word "lambic." They have used clever ways to signal what they're doing, like "Lambickx" (Vanberg and DeWulf), Rueuze Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-499207864048138182013-08-12T15:31:37.473-07:002013-08-12T15:31:37.473-07:00I'm extremely offended by this post and I real...I'm extremely offended by this post and I really wish the emails and Twitter comments about it would just stop. <br /><br />I'm sorry that I offended you with my Tweet and I'm sorry that my Tweet forced you to want to offend me in this way. Public humiliation is, quite possibly, one of the worst things you can do to someone. So, thank you Jeff. You are truly an upstanding gent. <br />Ashleyhttp://drinkwiththewench.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-39457974832597357562013-08-12T14:36:19.388-07:002013-08-12T14:36:19.388-07:00This is, of course, a non-issue. The only folks w...This is, of course, a non-issue. The only folks who are going to buy a lambic (Belgian or otherwise) Already know what a "real" one is. Koelsch is another matter, however, as it is a style that has true non-geek appeal. Charlienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-62636633532810075182013-08-12T13:50:22.353-07:002013-08-12T13:50:22.353-07:00[If we allow "lambic" to mean "any ...[If we allow "lambic" to mean "any sour beer," then what happens to the beers that take 12 hours to brew and three years to age?]<br /><br />Exactly why I don't want to call a beer "wild ale" when I go through a 12 (if only!) hour brew day, age it for 3 years, and do everything I can to emulate a traditional lambic brew/fermentation.<br /><br />EU protection of Levihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869366554598180116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-65278352498758817832013-08-12T10:57:25.905-07:002013-08-12T10:57:25.905-07:00Side note: Russian Imperial Stouts were ONLY brewe...Side note: Russian Imperial Stouts were ONLY brewed outside of Russia, and not for very long. I've been to Russia and had chance to talk to some of the brewers at the few brewpubs I found and none of them had ever heard of a Russian Imperial Stout and laughed when I told them.Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09594942287809274221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-63912359671564268122013-08-12T05:37:07.423-07:002013-08-12T05:37:07.423-07:00Sorry, I meant to say, the answer is to call a bee...Sorry, I meant to say, the answer is to call a beer "***-style". As long as the very word on the label is not prohibited by national (American in this case) law, this seems the fairest solution to me because "style" clearly implies an emulation.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-90145172729131675792013-08-12T05:34:17.050-07:002013-08-12T05:34:17.050-07:00The answer is the call a beer "***-style"...The answer is the call a beer "***-style". Those who put forward the argument about pilsner, pale ale, Imperial Russian stout cannot be gainsaid (although pale ale transplanted to America via a British colonization here, so that is sort of different, but point taken). But these are historical examples that must be accepted, it's too late to change the practice in their regard. ItGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-60387266242037968112013-08-10T22:07:31.709-07:002013-08-10T22:07:31.709-07:00How about calling a beer an "[x]-style beer&q...How about calling a beer an "[x]-style beer"?<br />I think Abe/Widmer did that with green and gold. Nat Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15579830055646831396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-50802058213992103282013-08-10T20:50:57.632-07:002013-08-10T20:50:57.632-07:00Bravo.
As for all the hangers-on, get over yourse...Bravo.<br /><br />As for all the hangers-on, get over yourselves. For decades, I've heard the beers called pseudo lambics. pLambics for short. Wild ale doesn't suck. pseudo-Champagne is now sparkling wine. Appelations are like trademarks: respect them and move on.<br /><br />And Jordan's a funny person. First, they beg 'throw us a bone', then they get finicky because Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com