tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post3053317431865322100..comments2023-11-02T07:13:53.064-07:00Comments on Beervana: Exciting New Blog!Jeff Alworthhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-82635757437819433492014-10-01T15:16:23.363-07:002014-10-01T15:16:23.363-07:00Through Jeff's kind offices, this thread is be...Through Jeff's kind offices, this thread is becoming a kind of clearing house for knowledge of marzen and its history. <br /><br />And so, some further references.<br /><br />Dreher made its own malt:<br /><br />http://books.google.ca/books?id=7Bs-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA113&dq=Biere+de+Dreher+couleur&hl=en&sa=X&ei=D1srVMedCpSiyASstoHgCg&ved=0CHAQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Biere%Gary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-61793442339893106852014-10-01T11:48:58.343-07:002014-10-01T11:48:58.343-07:00It would be interesting to duplicate the iodine te...It would be interesting to duplicate the iodine test and see what the different doses - say an average of each range - actually produce.<br /><br />The Vienna numbers are 50%-100% greater than the Bohemain, physically the difference might be quite striking. True, the Bavarian is that much more so, but by 1900 dunkel may have been very dark in general. Much dunkel is very dark today, yet a lot Gary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-34695024685317263922014-10-01T10:16:41.677-07:002014-10-01T10:16:41.677-07:00I pulled out the old Wahl and Henrius which I know...I pulled out the old Wahl and Henrius which I know for a fact covered this, and I was not shockingly right: As of 1901, color malts were used in Bavarian beer, but not Wiener beer. <br /><br />Color of malts were expressed in terms of amount of iodine in a normal solution as follows<br /><br />Bohemian: .2 to .25 cc<br />Wiener: .3 to .4 cc<br />Bavarian: .7 to 2.0 cc<br /><br />Vienna malt is Daniel Warnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-76879560944623293982014-10-01T08:33:52.767-07:002014-10-01T08:33:52.767-07:00Jeff, trusting also I may amend one thing I said i...Jeff, trusting also I may amend one thing I said in my last note which may not be technically correct. The 1888 trade fair catalog lists three malts and I inferred "Bavarian" is darker than "Vienna". This may not be so as such. Many reports suggest Munich lager, whether present use or lager (stored), was a lightish or medium brown (as some still is, e.g. Paulaner's), Gary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-23230554644669990082014-09-30T13:03:23.030-07:002014-09-30T13:03:23.030-07:00Perhaps Jeff will allow me to state a few more wor...Perhaps Jeff will allow me to state a few more words.<br /><br />Vienna malt today (rich and biscuity, golden but not amber in colour) is surely different to Vienna malt in the 1800's. Why would one think it should be the same? Brown malt isn't. English pale malt isn't (it was darker in the 1800's, perhaps why crystal is used with it by English brewers today), etc.<br /><br />Gary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-90283126000647515012014-09-30T11:47:35.263-07:002014-09-30T11:47:35.263-07:00BTW, the history of märzen is definitely, objectiv...BTW, the history of märzen is definitely, objectively, provably wrong:<br /><br />Unger's "Beer in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance": "As brewers in southern Germany turned toward using a type of yeast which settled to the bottom of the fermenting trough, the type which required temperatures from 6 to 8 C, restrictions on brewing in the summer increased. It was the policy inDaniel Warnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-79059216195106474782014-09-30T11:42:56.873-07:002014-09-30T11:42:56.873-07:00And again, the standard Michael Jackson-derived na...And again, the standard Michael Jackson-derived narrative with no evidence.<br /><br />Answer the simple question: The traditional narrative states that the malt Dreher was credited for inventing and popularizing was vienna malt.<br /><br />We know that a beer produced with vienna malt will be around 4-6 SRM. You're welcome to try it yourself, if you'd like. That's nowhere near "Daniel Warnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-72505098235931070262014-09-30T09:19:05.643-07:002014-09-30T09:19:05.643-07:00It gladdens my heart to come back from a weekend a...It gladdens my heart to come back from a weekend away and see this kind of debate. I don't know how many people will take the time to read it all, but I do, and I enjoyed every word--Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-74759551475096772152014-09-30T04:37:40.688-07:002014-09-30T04:37:40.688-07:00Net net, and I've done much more reading than ...Net net, and I've done much more reading than I've indicated here, Anton Dreher and his son revolutionized Austrian brewing, introduced a beer that was darker than English pale ale but lighter than dark brown Munich lager, and their brewery was known specifically by the late 1800's for their "marzen". It appears Spaten was responsible for introducing a beer of similar Gary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-86455561789660069462014-09-29T21:54:31.225-07:002014-09-29T21:54:31.225-07:00Answer: it couldn't, the BJCP history is compl...Answer: it couldn't, the BJCP history is completely ass-backwards, a gift courtesy of Michael Jackson and 19th century marketing and brewery propaganda.<br /><br />Okay, so modern malts are probably a lot more uniform than older ones. Old school floor malting will add maybe 1 SRM, if you're lucky. Triple decoction, maybe one if you're lucky. Let's say you use a 2+ hour boil, too, Daniel Warnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-76590408210210692752014-09-29T21:53:59.870-07:002014-09-29T21:53:59.870-07:00I said "trap sprung" because I love gett...I said "trap sprung" because I love getting into fights over this. Call it a drunken Cassandra complex.<br /><br />There are a number of points I fundamentally disagree with you with and have a sound, logical argument for these points. The major one is this:<br /><br />"the colour of marzen, made famous by Anton Dreher"<br /><br />There is literally no evidence to suggest thatDaniel Warnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-56973219188051526662014-09-29T13:28:12.709-07:002014-09-29T13:28:12.709-07:00Sorry, not convinced. Amber means amber (to me), ...Sorry, not convinced. Amber means amber (to me), especially taken with "nutty-golden". Even light amber is not yellow. Also, I did not state orange was a characteristic of marzen bier's colour. I said English pale ale could have this colour in the period, and remarked that the first reference I cited stated Vienna lager was darker than pale ale. <br /><br />Wahl & HeniusGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-31251438858442720682014-09-29T10:41:29.925-07:002014-09-29T10:41:29.925-07:00Trap sprung.
"Amber" is a color ranging...Trap sprung.<br /><br />"Amber" is a color ranging from between yellow and orange on the color spectrum. So it is entirely possible that a very yellow beer would be called "glowing amber." Part of the problem is that contemporary usage of the word "amber" itself--to describe a beer that is red to brown--is completely wrong. "Bronze" is not synonymous with Daniel Warnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-83259719185805205292014-09-28T07:56:07.019-07:002014-09-28T07:56:07.019-07:00When writing about Germany, you should keep in min...When writing about Germany, you should keep in mind there are two parts: Bavaria and the rest of the country. In Bavaria, I would say the attitude is quite close to the Czech approach.Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21271644.post-35780863658406839392014-09-26T15:33:48.586-07:002014-09-26T15:33:48.586-07:00Great to see you getting more "mainstream&quo...Great to see you getting more "mainstream" press. You need to signal boost the things people like me and Ron Pattinson have been railing about for years: maerzen is a strength, not a color, modern oktoberfests are pale and so are historical viennas, decoction mashed lagers rule, et cetera. I have faith that you can put right what once went wrong.Daniel Warnernoreply@blogger.com